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Thornburg Income Builder Opportunities Trust – 2nd Quarter Update

While market dynamics change, the need for current income remains high. In this quarterly update, hear how we’re helping to solve the income challenge.

Read Transcript
Thornburg Income Builder Opportunities Trust – 2nd Quarter Update


Greetings, and welcome to the Thornburg Income Builder Opportunities Trust Quarterly Update. At this time all participants are in a listen only mode. A brief question and answer session will follow the formal presentation. If anyone should require operator assistance during the conference, please press star, zero, on your telephone keypad. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded.

It is now my pleasure to introduce your host, Michael Ordonez, Director of Client Portfolio Management for Thornburg. Thank you, Mr. Ordonez, you may begin.

Michael Ordonez

Thank you, operator and welcome, everyone. Thank you for participating in this afternoon’s call. Hope everyone is doing well. It’s a sunny, but a little bit cloudy day here in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Today, you’re going to be hearing from the Thornburg Income Builder Opportunities Trust team on recent performance, current positioning and our market outlook.

I’d like to remind you that today’s presentation, which slides can be found on our website, may contain forward looking statements which are based on management’s current expectations, and are subject to uncertainty and changes in circumstances. Actual results may differ materially from these statements due to a variety of factors including those described in our SEC filings. I’d like to quickly introduce our speaker today, Matt Burdett, Managing Director and Portfolio Manager on the Income Builder Opportunities Trust, as well as on other equity and multi asset funds that the firm has to offer.

A housekeeping point to make before we get started, there’s going to be three different ways to ask a question to the portfolio management team this afternoon. First, you can send us an email at questions@thornburg.com. That’s questions@thornburg.com. Second, you can type your questions directly into the webcast online. And lastly, the operator will pull for questions for those of you on the telephone, when we reach the end of the prepared remarks.

As we celebrate our 40th anniversary at Thornburg, this year TBLD, it’s coming up on its one year anniversary. The trust closed its initial public offering in late July of 2021. So whether you’ve been a long-time investor or TBLD has been your introduction to our company or an extension of a long partnership, on behalf of everybody here, we’d like to say thank you. And in the same way our vision mission and values at Thornburg haven’t changed since 1982, TBLD has also not changed in what has been certainly a remarkable, uncertain year.

The Income Builder Opportunities Trust aims to provide a differentiated level of income, of current income, with companies that have the potential to grow that income over time. And we believe that as our companies grow those earnings and dividends, investors should also appreciate from the capital appreciation, and we do this with a variety of different income generating tools that we believe are best developed in the closed end fund structure. So whether it’s to meet your short term funding needs, such as retirement income, foundation distribution, or contribute significantly to long term growth to help make your income sustainable and long lasting, those mission, vision and values are going to continue to remain the same. So hopefully at the end of this call, you’re going to get a sense of how constructive we are for this strategy in the near and long term.

So let me turn it over to Matt, to get into the meat of the presentation. Matt?

Matt Burdett

Thanks a lot, Michael, and thanks to everybody for tuning in here. I’m going to reference some slides that Michael mentioned were available. And starting on slide two, I think Michael did a great job kind of reminding everyone the purpose of this strategy. On this slide, it just kind of lays out what the objective is. This is definitely an income solution where we’re creating a sizable distribution yield, which we think is differentiated in the sense that it’s comprised of qualified dividend income, fixed income interest, and then of course, gains related to options.

And the goal here is to have a balanced portfolio using global dividend paying stocks, global bonds and hybrid securities and then option overlays on some of the stocks in the portfolio. Just like the open end investment income builder, we focus on companies that have an ability and willingness to pay dividends, right? So the ability is a robust business that generates cash, it grows its business, it’s well placed within its value chain. And the willingness part is important because you need to have management teams and boards that are aligned to pay dividends over time.

Moving to the next slide, which is slide three, this kind of lays out some of the key macroeconomic issues that all investors are facing, and there are plenty of them. I won’t read through all of these. I think I’ll just kind of highlight what we think are probably the most important ones from an investment perspective. Obviously, we’re still living with COVID19. I would say, in the West, it’s become kind of like the flu in a sense, like this is going to be around, most people will get it if they have not already got it. We saw today that our President had tested positive. And the real tail risk here would be if you had a new variant that was more severe, and then perhaps vaccines didn’t work and it would create a more severe reaction, resulting in policy response. Hopefully, that is not the case. I’m unaware of any scientific evidence that shows that as a likely outcome, but something to just keep in the back of your mind.

Probably more on people’s mind is the inflationary pressures that we’re experiencing here in the U.S., but also in Europe and other places in the world. There’s a variety of reasons for the inflation, but it’s been, I think, the central focal point for many investors, because central banks have now finally woken up to the fact that they need to address the high inflation and the Fed has moved pretty aggressively to contain inflation, and we’ll just have to see where it lands in the next couple of months. A lot of the inflation that we’re seeing is due to rising commodity prices. A basket of commodities are up 30%, year over year to July 10th, although down mid-teens from prior highs.

A lot of this is being driven by the fact that there’s a conflict in Ukraine. This has resulted in sanctions, and also a reduced flow of a variety of commodities that everyone is well aware of. So the movement and interest rates, the high commodity cost and high inflation brings the key question everyone wants to know, is when are we going to go into a recession and how deep will that recession be? Look, I think if you’re going to look at the first half of ’22, for the U.S., it’s likely we’re in a technical recession, and some of that is just due to the way the national income accounting works. It’s displayed on the slide here, but effectively, trade and inventories inflated the Q4 ’21 GDP number of positive 6.9%. Five points of that was due to trade and inventories.

And then in Q1, it was a negative 1.6% GDP print, of which negative three percentage point was a contraction from the trading inventory. So you’ll likely see that in Q2 as well, which is really more of a normalization. To really gauge whether it’s a severe recession, it’s really I think more about jobs, and and whether there are meaningful job losses. So far, that is not what we’re seeing. Everybody’s probably seen the headlines of some large companies that are in fact slowing their hiring. Some of the big tech companies have mentioned that. I think that Ford has announced some small job reductions, but that’s really I think the key that we need to watch, is what happens in the job market. And so far, it’s still pretty strong, and wages are strong.

Putting all this together, we’re watching central bank’s actions to see what they do. We had the ECB surprise everyone today, raising its deposit rate 50 basis points. Most thought it was going to be 25 basis points, but they raised it to end up at a zero destination, so a 0% deposit rate. So the bigger question is, probably, why did it take them so long to move into at least to a zero from negative rates? Yeah, look, I think overall, it means more volatility for financial assets. It seems there’s a little bit of calmness over recent trading days. We’ll just have to see how long that lasts, but generally, with respect to this portfolio, we’re going to continue to drive the outcome of creating an income solution in the same way that we would, anyway, and it’s really just about navigating the markets through that.

Turning to slide four, this is just a snapshot of market index returns for a variety of indices here, most of them equity, although the U.S. AG is also included in there. And look, there’s nothing to sugarcoat here. Q1 was a fairly down quarter for everyone and Q2 was much more so. We’ve clawed back some of it a little bit in certain areas, but overall, it’s been a fairly challenging market. I think when I look at Q1 and Q2 together, the S&P 500 has really just kind of made a round trip from where it ended in December of 2020. So we had a nice year and ’21, and it kind of round trip back.

Moving on to slide number five, is just a diagram to remind everyone of the toolbox that we are using to generate distribution and total return for T-build here. We’re using primarily global equities. That’s kind of the core lever, targeting the home base of 70%, 75%. We think that that’s a reasonable target to have. We tend to have a global approach in the types of stocks that we’re looking at, and that’s mostly because equity yields are much higher outside of the U.S. And so we find not only higher yields, but better valuations overall, as well as more diverse sectors, as opposed to being in the U.S.

Credit is the other basket we use. We are open to all types of credit, primarily in the U.S., and we really let credit decisions drive where we’re looking for opportunities. And generally, we’re going to buy more credit when yields are much higher. And just as a reminder, when we launched the closed end fund late July last year, the high yield to worse was I think just under four and now it’s it’s 822. So that yield to worst has actually doubled since we’ve launched and it’s not even a year yet. That creates opportunities for us. And then the other tool we’re using our option overlays, primarily calls on stocks that we own, so covered calls. What drives that decision is we try and use our internal price targets, which is something that Thornburg has done for many years, to help us navigate where we can find particularly attractive options.

On slide six, this is just an overview of the allocation and some some other statistics on the portfolio here. I’ll just really focus more on the allocation to the far left. So international stocks comprise about 40% of the asset allocation. As I mentioned earlier, a lot of that is just driven by better yields and that’s been a historic trend for a long time and I would expect that to continue unless something materially shifts in the U.S., which we would not expect. But the other important element to remember is that the non-equity or the non-U.S. part of the portfolio, a lot of those companies are multinational in nature.  So they’re domiciled are listed in international markets, but a lot of their business is actually located in the U.S. and they’re generally global businesses.

So that’s an important consideration. It’s not as simple as just looking at international allocation, and then assuming that they’re pure international businesses. U.S. equity is about 27%. U.S. fixed income about 26%, non-U.S., a little less than 5%, and then about 3% of cash here. Other things that are on the slide here, I guess, the one I would kind of point to is just the option overlay. It’s about a quarter of the portfolio now. Since we’ve launched, it’s been higher. It’s been somewhere up to into the 40s. It really just depends on the opportunity set, as we see them in the markets overall.

On slide seven, here is portfolio positioning with respect to sector allocation. It’s fairly balanced. I think, overall, we tend to be a little bit skewed towards information technology, including some stocks that don’t pay dividends. We like them for a couple of reasons. One, usually they have very high growth prospects, that’s one, and two, we can use them for writing call. So we can generate distribution contribution from those stocks, even though they’re not actually producing organic income. And so I’ve touched a lot on I think the regional aspect, but North America is roughly 54%, Europe, X, UK, 23.2%, Asia, 6%, UK at 5%, Japan at 4.2$. And again, I would just highlight that a lot of the International names are going to be global businesses in some sense, not all, but a fair amount of them.

So with that, I’m going to pass over the next few slides to Michael, to walk through some of the performance numbers.

Michael Ordonez

Thanks, Matt. So if we flip to slide eight, you’re going to see our performance of TBLD, and the performance versus our blended benchmark, which to refresh your memory is 75% the MSCI World and 25% the Bloomberg, Barclays AG. You’re going to notice the discount in share price from the NAV, and the discount of about 12% for Q2, and really, for our benchmark, and for TBLD, it’s clear that the market doesn’t love the uncertainty that it’s find itself in today.

As Matt touched on the opening remarks on the key macroeconomic slide, investors are really struggling to assess the degree of persistent inflation, the consequences of the rising rates, environment we find ourselves in today, the Ukrainian war, the potential for recession, the emergence of new COVID variants. So all of that has resulted in elevated volatility, but I would add that elevated volatility continues to benefit our options book that we underwrite. And as you see on the previous slide, that’s about 23.5% of the total portfolio.

So if we go to slide nine, what you’re going to see is shown a little bit differently, the monthly total returns of the portfolio, and a few points I’d like to make here. We build the portfolio to perform well across the market cycles. And I think this slide helps to show, first of all, utility produced in a market where sell offs have at times have had non fundamental drivers. And second, the recent sell off has obviously been sharp and fairly indiscriminate with regards to fundamentals.

Most of our holdings, I may add, that we believe are strongly positioned in their industries. And that certainly doesn’t mean, obviously by the page, that they’re free from cyclicality but it doesn’t mean that they are likely to be stronger when the macro picture is more certain, we believe. So really, prices we don’t think are telling you what the fundamentals are doing, and that’s obviously acute in periods where fear and regret for past decisions, even in this recent market downturn is obviously dominating current investor thinking.

Flipping to slide 10, you see the price in NAV premium and discount history. While we appreciate that the NAV decline has been challenging, again, we don’t believe it’s reflective of the relative value of our holdings to the broader market. And although there is that volatility, and uncertainty in all corners of the world and up and down the capital stack, we really do believe that the current crisis reinforces the essential nature of many of the businesses that we have in the company.

Matt’s going to go through quickly and talk to you about those in our top 10 holdings. What you’re going to see is a focus on systemically important businesses that are really making up the ingredients for modern society in the modern economy. And hopefully, you can see the clean balance sheet nature of our companies, and the defensible moats that the vast majority of them have. So what is to say on this slide, if we take one thing away, it is that our portfolio represents what we believe is excellent value at current places, and when rational minds eventually prevail, we do believe our companies have the ability to bounce back strongly.

Going to slide 11, one of the things that we can control is the monthly distributions, and we just paid a monthly distribution of a little more than $0.10 a share on the trust common shares that was payable on July 20th, so yesterday, to common shareholders of record as of July 11th, 2022. And since inception, you’ll see that TBLD has paid 11 of those distributions at that same $0.10, totaling $1.14 per share. And we declare that initial distribution on August 25th, at a distribution rate of 6.25% on the IPO price. So we’re very cognizant of the fact that the things that we can control are the NAV and the distribution history, and that’s why we’re happy to say that that has continued to be stable.

Flipping to slide 12, I’d like to spend a little bit of time on this. Considering the market right now, I think this slide gives great perspective, and it happens to be 150 years of perspective, going back decade by decade. And really what this slide tells you, is don’t take our word for it, take more than a century of financial data going back to the Civil War. And what you’ll see is total returns to the S&P 500 index or its proxy in those early decades, was averaging a return of about 9.1%, almost evenly divided between price appreciation and income over that whole 150 year period.

And if you look decade by decade, some years it’s more price appreciation, some years it’s less, and some years, its income appreciation, some years it’s less. But we can look, for example, between 2011 and 2020, price Appreciation was king. And we use that recency bias to our advantage in TBLD. And in the wake of the.com bust, for example, you can see the income was very, very important, but overall, income has accounted for just shy of half percent of your total return.

And there’s no question for us, we believe companies with higher payout ratios have delivered higher EPS growth over time. And we believe this is due to the strong capital discipline imposed on management teams, which adopt only select high return projects, as opposed to numerous projects in pursuit of growth for growth’s sake. And that’s acutely important in a market that we find ourselves in today. So this is to say, we don’t know what this decade would look like. So far, it looks substantially different than the last one, in that income appears to be more important, and we do believe that this trend will continue.

So why don’t I pass it over to Matt to talk about our ingredients in the portfolio?

Matt Burdett

Thanks, Michael. So turning to slide 13, I think this is a good example to show everyone the comparative yields of some specific holdings that we have. And these are some of our top holdings here, where we look at the trailing 12 month dividend yield, so the equity yield versus the current debt yield. And then over off to the far right, we show that specific debt issue, the coupon rate, and then its maturity. So most of these are around 10 years to maturity, so roughly, approximating kind of a perpetuity comparison to equity yield.

And so let’s say the first company is Generali (SP). This is an Italian composite insurer, so it’s got a mix of of life business, life insurance, as well as P&C business.  It’s throughout Europe.  Its main markets are in Italy, Germany and France, and its yield is north of 7%. Its dividend yield is north of 7%. And this is a dividend that has grown. So even compared to its current debt yield of roughly 5%, and as we all know, when rates started rising and the ECB commented that it would be raising rates, Italy in particular started to see more shock to their sovereign yield, just simply because the concerns over too much leverage there, and that’s a sovereign sovereign situation. But even even with the moves that we’ve seen, the equity is still yielding well north of what the debt is yielding.

Going down the page here, I mean, you could see the comparisons, and now as another one that’s yielding almost 8%, this is also an Italian company, primarily European, but it also has a global business. It’s a utility and a large renewable developer. Again, this is a company that has grown its dividend. So when we see yields of this level, that’s pretty compelling to us to help us meet the goals that we’re seeking here.

I won’t talk to everything else. You can reference some of these names on your own. And I’ll turn to the next slide. On slide 14, this is just showing our top 10 holdings. I touched on Generali. Pfizer, I think everyone knows, and really what we’re just trying to show you here is the weight of these names. And then the 2021 price change in the stock and then the 2022 year to date stock price movement. And so what you see in the case of Pfizer, everyone knows who Pfizer is, had a spectacular year growing their revenue, predominantly through COVID vaccines vaccines and treatments.

It was a great stock and ’21. This year, it’s been a little bit more soggy, I think, just simply because the market doesn’t want to ascribe much value to the COVID business. Right? It’s viewed to be something that is going to dwindle down. We have a slightly different view and think that COVID is likely going to be around forever, just in varying degrees. So there’s going to kind of always be a need for some COVID therapies as well as other things going on in the pipeline, at an evaluation that we think is very, very attractive.

I’ve touched on (INAUDIBLE) Total Energies. This is the French oil major, who its business is dramatically benefiting from the energy situation, obviously, as an oil and gas producer. It’s the second largest LNG provider and trader in the world, after Shell. And we just think that this market, given the crisis that’s happened with Russia and Ukraine, that the deck has kind of moved–the deck chairs have moved around a bit in terms of the attractiveness of a business like Total Energies, right?

I think the world took took for granted that oil and gas were going to be easily found and available. And I think the Russia Ukraine crisis has showed us that maybe that’s not true. And in a company like Total Energies is going to benefit from this dynamic, which will happen over years. In addition, they are also producing, they have one of the largest pipelines of renewable assets. So they are addressing the energy transition in a way we think that’s responsible and makes a ton of sense to us. And so we’re big supporters of the company, and think the valuation is very compelling.

Qualcomm, I think everyone knows this semiconductor company. It was a decent stock for us last year, an even better stock the year before that, and it’s struggled this year, simply because it’s a semiconductor and when recession fears start to take over, semiconductors are one of the first parts of the market to be punished. We’re more positive on the company. We think that the technological moat has been exemplified by the fact that they’ve been able to take share in a market, in particular, take share in the higher end smartphones. And probably more importantly, they have been able to diversify into other adjacencies besides smartphones, such as auto, RF, IoT and the like. And then the backlog show that they’ve well diversified the business, and they have more to go, but we think it’s very attractive.

You can see the other companies on there, Microsoft. I think everyone knows. That was a great stock last year, a little more pressure this year, I think. Look, honestly, the multiple got pretty high. We still like the business overall, and if continued to hold it, we think it’s a long term winner there.

BHP group, this is an Australian miner. They did a couple of things that we thought were attractive. They spun off and merged their oil and gas business with Woodside. And in doing so, is now a cleaner mining company. And as a result of that spin off, that helped us on our income distribution, because when that happens, that’s actually positive for our distribution.

CME Group, look, this is basically a business that makes more money when volatility is high, and that’s kind of where we’re living now. So I’ll leave the last two for people to ponder, but they’re, again, IT businesses that we think are critical to modern life. The demand for both Cisco products and Taiwan Semiconductor, we think long term still very strong. I think there’s probably some questions about where we are in the cycle now, but overall, evidence shows that businesses are both fairly durable.

So with that, I’m going to pass it back to Michael for any potential questions.

Michael Ordonez

Perfect. Thanks, Matt. So let me, quickly if I can, put a bow on the presentation, and then we’ll get into the questions. But first, I think it’s safe to say the index discriminate nature of the selloff is presenting real opportunities to us today. So we’ve been busy sharpening our pencils and making sure as bond yields increase in markets dislocates further, we’re going to be opportunistic where we deploy capital. And we’re focusing on the options overlay to make sure we’re benefiting from that market vault.

Second, and probably more importantly, is fundamental research is never out of style. Whether it’s the meme stocks or crypto currencies, there is no substitute for the type of work that we transact in, and the fundamental research that we conduct. And we don’t believe that share prices today are telling you what those fundamentals are doing. We have a substantial valuation runway relative to the history and relative to other asset classes. And we are certainly under the belief that investors are going to direct capitals in the coming quarters in the dividend securities that we own, as they realize their intrinsic values.

And lastly, we remain constructive. Our goals haven’t changed, and we’re sticking to our knitting. So maybe with that, Operator, can you open for questions on the phone? And then we have some questions here on the webcast that I’d like to get to.


Yes. We will now be conducting a question and answer session. If you’d like to ask your question by phone, please press star, one, on your telephone keypad. A confirmation tone will indicate that your line is in the question queue. You may press star, two, if you would like to remove your question from the queue. For participants using speaker equipment, it may be necessary to pick up your handset before pressing the star keys. One moment while we pull for questions.

Michael Ordonez

Thanks. Matt, I’ll go to you with some that we’ve gotten from the webcast already. And the first one is, is it time to buy credit today?

Matt Burdett

Sure. Yeah. Look, I mean, we have been buying credit. We’re not not piling into it, but we’ve been modestly adding to give you a sense. So September 30 of last year, which is kind of our first closing quarter there, not a full quarter, but we’re roughly 26% in fixed income, and now we’re 31%, so modest change. Some of that is relative price moves, but it’s also additions in credit, and it’s mostly going to be in the high yield area where we find–it became attractive. And as I mentioned earlier, when we launched the high yield, yield to worse was below 4%. And now it’s north of an 8%, and it got as high as almost as almost 9%. It’s kind of rolled back a little bit, but yeah, so when we think about the overall total return that we want to generate, when high yield is at this level, it’s helping serve the purpose of the portfolio. So we are adding it, but it’s all based on our view of what we think is an attractive credit.

Michael Ordonez

Perfect. Here’s another one, and it’s on inflation. Higher inflation than the roughly 2% we know pre-pandemic has challenged the company’s cost structures, what are you hearing from management teams, Matt? And can you give some examples on how inflation–how your portfolio companies are dealing with the inflation problem?

Matt Burdett

Sure. Yeah. So look, I think you have to just take a step back, and different types of businesses are going to experience different forms of inflation. Businesses that are heavily dependent on large numbers of employees, I would say are probably more victims than those businesses that don’t have that problem and have the ability to put price through for rising costs.

Within the portfolio, I can’t name anything specific where we’re really, really worried about the cost structure crimping the overall business to a point that’s punishing for the overall investment case. I will say, JP Morgan was just reported, and we own that. Their expenses did grow, I think north, I think, is 6.1%. They grew. And that’s in Q2 of this year. And that’s after expenses grew 7% to $71 billion in 2021, versus revenue that grew $1.7 billion. So the cost grew almost $5 million, and revenue only grew less than $2 billion.

So that’s something that’s happening, they’re just spending for future growth, but also, they’re not yet seen the impact of the higher rates yet. You’re going to start to see it in the coming quarters, and that’s–they don’t have to do anything. They just have to stand still. And because rates have moved, they’ll make more money, right, with just net interest income. So we really think about at the individual business level. The commodity names, it’s not really a problem, right? Their beneficiaries as commodity prices move higher.

The tech names, the semiconductors have been able to pass on costs as foundries. When TSMC charges its customers more in price, they just pass it on to their customers. So it’s really case by case, but so far, we’re monitoring it very closely, and have to consider the puts and takes around it and what kind of pricing power the companies have.

Michael Ordonez

Perfect. And I’m certain that this will be also on a case by case basis, but the question is on FX, and it’s two part. I’m combining two questions here, Matt. What does the strong dollar do to the companies in TBLD? And maybe I’ll just answer this one. Does TBLD do any currency hedging? We don’t currently, but we do have that ability to do so in the perspective.

So Matt, why don’t you take, what does a strong dollar do to your companies in TBLD?

Matt Burdett

Yeah. Look, I think probably the biggest impact for for TBLD is when we receive foreign dividends, and translate them back to dollars, they come back in lower amount of dollars than they would have. Right? And so that’s probably the biggest consideration for TBLD. With respect to the companies and their businesses, look, if you’re a European, if you’re a Euro denominated company and you have a significant business in the U.S., then it’s a positive tailwind for for them.

Conversely, if you’re a U.S. multinational, it’s a headwind and you’re seeing that. I think you see, I think J&J reported, and they took their guidance down just a bit, and it’s purely because of currency. But most investors look past that, and they tend to look at the currency neutral growth anyway, and that’s generally how we look at it. I think the bigger concern would be, if a company has cost in dollars, and it’s getting revenue in a weakening currency, then that’s where the problem is. And within this portfolio, we don’t necessarily have many situations like that. So again, fairly case by case, but that’s the big picture.

Michael Ordonez

Thanks Matt. We’re coming up on exactly 45 past the hour, so maybe just one more here. And the question is on balance sheets. How do you feel generally about the balance sheets for the corporates in TBLD? Yeah, why don’t we leave it at that one?

Matt Burdett

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Look, it’s a valid question when rates are rising, and refinancing risks are on the horizon. Generally speaking, within this portfolio, we tend to steer away from companies that have very high leverage anyway. And so when you do your ability and willingness to pay dividends, question when you ask yourself that question, the ability to pay comes up, and that’s part of it, right? Is the balance sheet strong enough to withstand some type of down cycle, and they still are going to generate enough cash to pay their dividend with a lot of cushion on it?

And most of our companies, I would say, if not all, have that ability. Usually, when the market is worried about the ability to pay a dividend, it’s very clear the stock price, and I can’t say–we’ve obviously gone down with the market, a little less than market but, but there’s no specific company I would point to that I would be worried they cannot find the dividend, which is the critical question that we ask ourselves.

Michael Ordonez

Perfect. Well, Matt, thank you very much. Operator, is there any questions on the phone? Are there any questions on the phone?


Currently, there are no questions in the queue.

Michael Ordonez

Perfect. Well, why don’t we leave it there, 47 past the hour. I’d like to thank everybody for being on the call today and making it as interactive as it was. As always, please feel free to reach out to us with any follow up questions you may have. We’d love making ourselves available and love talking about the strategy. So hope everyone is well. Hope everybody has a great rest of the summer, and we will talk soon. Thanks again. Thank you, Operator.

Matt Burdett

Thank you.


This concludes today’s conference. You may disconnect your lines at this time. Thank you for your participation.

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